Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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thank the almighty amongst the clouds himself, tapu lele needs to come back simply so psyspam in both vgc and smogon is given a better setter and abuser, indeedee and armourouge are scum
Early gen 9 was such a vibe. So many flaws, and I didn't have fun with all the broken, but we had Psychic Terrain not only as a viable form of play, but op for a while. I miss stuff like that. To me, a successful meta is one where we are free to explore off-the-wall sets and playstyles, not constricted by OP one shot terrors.

I don't know how to do those picture memes, so imagine Pepperidge Farms family guy dude.
 
Do we have an actual list of the leaks for returning mons? I have a terrible shitpost idea but I need concrete things to use. Anyway uh, how to stop myself from tilting 200 points during a play session, otherwise known as asking a bunch of bad players (with notable exceptions) how to get good.
 
When are replays coming back I don't wanna download html files every time I have a sick game to show my friend. On a different note, Physically Defensive H-Goodra goes hard as fuck honestly.
Goodra-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Body Press
- Draco Meteor
- Heavy Slam
I'm in the low 1500s again after using this thing on a team built around it and it's really fucking nice. Sits on ogerpons, fucks up rillabooms, either dies to or kills enamori, and isn't afraid of kingambit at ALL. This set is amazing.
I usually lurk here but I saw Goodra theorycrafting so I want in. I recall you mentioning that max defense 104 HP was the the minimum investment to check waterpon, so I used that to come up with this set:

Goodra-Hisui (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 92 SpA / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Earthquake
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor

Tera type can be changed out for whatever really, flying just seems the most useful for Hoodra's weaknesses. -atk EQ still ohkos iron moth and 2hkos heatran:

0- Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 328-388 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

so you're able to run 60 speed to snipe unaware pelipper and corv with tbolt for some nice damage. Does mean you're never killing defensive Ghold though, so you'll need something else for that. Rest gets put into spa for damage, while AV is for patching up your special defense so you can still check some special attackers.

Sludge bomb over flash cannon seems odd but if the goal is to check waterpon, then it's a pretty clean 2hko without tera:

92 SpA Goodra-Hisui Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 158-188 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

while still letting you hit fairies like enamorus and hatterene. If the ogerpon does tera, you can at least still hit them with tbolt afterwards.
Best with wish support given you have no passive healing and you need to be at absolutely full to take two non-tera'd +2 ivy cudgels.

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Goodra-Hisui: 133-157 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Is it a good set? Eh. Been hovering around mid 1400s on the testing alt I'm using it with. But it's a nice change in pace to use a possibly somewhat viable mon and have it do things.
 
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tapu fini would be a part of OU that's for sure

tapu koko would probably be qb'd hour 1

tapu bulu BL real

tapu lele would be banned week 1 no shot it stays longer

that being said I want tapu lele to get aura sphere to really fuck over the chess piece

Hot take, but I think koko wouldn't be banned, moreso moth and valiant would be banned before koko gets considered. Can't make this a one liner so i gotta explain a bit, so idk ig "Koko enables borderline broken mons such as ival and moth to actually be able to run different items, which accentuates how hard to becomes to check them. Ival, with it's 18 million sets, can fucking run new shit like ebelt/boots/lefties/LO/etc.... in it's sets to actually abuse that goddamn coverage and win, meanwhile moth has boots now. Treads and Hands went from decent to good thanks to koko, but the rest of them are still ASS!!! Ok so ban moth + ival yeah". Or something of the likes
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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Hot take, but I think koko wouldn't be banned, moreso moth and valiant would be banned before koko gets considered. Can't make this a one liner so i gotta explain a bit, so idk ig "Koko enables borderline broken mons such as ival and moth to actually be able to run different items, which accentuates how hard to becomes to check them. Ival, with it's 18 million sets, can fucking run new shit like ebelt/boots/lefties/LO/etc.... in it's sets to actually abuse that goddamn coverage and win, meanwhile moth has boots now. Treads and Hands went from decent to good thanks to koko, but the rest of them are still ASS!!! Ok so ban moth + ival yeah". Or something of the likes
Even with Koko in the tier, I don’t think Moth will break the tier. It simply has plenty of checks and counters despite its destructive wallbreaking capabilities.

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It needs Tera Ground to break past half of these which costs a moveslot that may miss out on additional coverage or moves like Substitute or Agility.

IVal you could argue would be broken since it could run LO, Ebelt, Specs, etc to offset its lack of immediate power on booster sets. Suddenly checks like Mola, Clef, Glowking, Amoonguss, and Zapdos are more likely to be beaten out by it.
 
Hot take, but I think koko wouldn't be banned, moreso moth and valiant would be banned before koko gets considered. Can't make this a one liner so i gotta explain a bit, so idk ig "Koko enables borderline broken mons such as ival and moth to actually be able to run different items, which accentuates how hard to becomes to check them. Ival, with it's 18 million sets, can fucking run new shit like ebelt/boots/lefties/LO/etc.... in it's sets to actually abuse that goddamn coverage and win, meanwhile moth has boots now. Treads and Hands went from decent to good thanks to koko, but the rest of them are still ASS!!! Ok so ban moth + ival yeah". Or something of the likes
Yes but we can use an other surge to beat this. Rillaboom, Fini or Lele could remove the electric surge. I think they will be very common.

Anyway, even without koko, iron valiant has been on the radar many times, because it has lots of options, so with koko, it could really deserve a ban. The other electric surge abusers are less good than valiant and the opponent can remove the surge with Rilla, Fini, Lele (or defog).

The thing with valiant is that we could put it many times on the field and activate its ability thanks to electric surge. If the opponent put an other surge, we could just switch out iv, and bring it back later. Valiant is the fastest quark drive user so I think it would be too good, but not the others.
Moth has the big problem of being weak to stealth rock, and has 4 moveslot syndrom (we want to use dazzling glean for dragons, fiery dance, sludge wave, disharge/energy ball for water types, substitute to avoid sucker punch, and tera blast ground to ohko heatran). Moreover, moth doesn't have encore, physical sets and calm mind.
 
Even with Koko in the tier, I don’t think Moth will break the tier. It simply has plenty of checks and counters despite its destructive wallbreaking capabilities.

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It needs Tera Ground to break past half of these which costs a moveslot that may miss out on additional coverage or moves like Substitute or Agility.
I am forever grateful that GF never gave this monster Quiver Dance. If it did, then it'd be certainly joining its present Counterpart in Ubers for sure.
 
Even with Koko in the tier, I don’t think Moth will break the tier. It simply has plenty of checks and counters despite its destructive wallbreaking capabilities.

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It needs Tera Ground to break past half of these which costs a moveslot that may miss out on additional coverage or moves like Substitute or Agility.

IVal you could argue would be broken since it could run LO, Ebelt, Specs, etc to offset its lack of immediate power on booster sets. Suddenly checks like Mola, Clef, Glowking, Amoonguss, and Zapdos are more likely to be beaten out by it.
I think Milotic is kind of a fake check to Moth considering how hard it gets chunked by E Ball but you're right otherwise.
I usually lurk here but I saw Goodra theorycrafting so I want in. I recall you mentioning that max defense 104 HP was the the minimum investment to check waterpon,
Look ima be real, the spread started with 252 def and then I kinda just spitballed from there until it looked good. I think you definitely want curse to deal with not only Ogerpon but also other physical threats, and allows it to really fuck up gambit. Body Press and Heavy Slam are nice and the SpA invest is entirely for draco meteor bc sometimes u just gotta drop a draco. Heavy Slam could be cut for gyro ball but in my experience you don't really get the opportunity to curse enough to make Gyro Ball better
 

RudeLiees

formerly Xr Kartana
Even with Koko in the tier, I don’t think Moth will break the tier. It simply has plenty of checks and counters despite its destructive wallbreaking capabilities.

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It needs Tera Ground to break past half of these which costs a moveslot that may miss out on additional coverage or moves like Substitute or Agility.

IVal you could argue would be broken since it could run LO, Ebelt, Specs, etc to offset its lack of immediate power on booster sets. Suddenly checks like Mola, Clef, Glowking, Amoonguss, and Zapdos are more likely to be beaten out by it.
6 of them are fucked by tera Ground, or have To tera
Calc time :P
132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 186-218 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO
132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

At +1 with fiery dance
132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO
 
I think Koko itself is broken with Tera. Its just a little worse Regieleki with Tera Ice, being able to be physical or special. Moth I think is fine with or without Koko, it never felt to me a problematic Mon during the whole Gen.
If Koko comes back, it's so over for us Pincurchin bros. Let's hope it doesn't so that Pincurchin stocks remain stable.

Stole a heat team w/ blaze Tauros and it's still Fire. Intimidate + Wisp are so good, though it hates higher Knock dist getting rid of its one lifeline in Lefties.
 
Look ima be real, the spread started with 252 def and then I kinda just spitballed from there until it looked good. I think you definitely want curse to deal with not only Ogerpon but also other physical threats, and allows it to really fuck up gambit. Body Press and Heavy Slam are nice and the SpA invest is entirely for draco meteor bc sometimes u just gotta drop a draco. Heavy Slam could be cut for gyro ball but in my experience you don't really get the opportunity to curse enough to make Gyro Ball better
Hm. If you don't mind me asking, how does that set check waterpon? Like what is the sequence of events that lets you beat it instead of it muscling past you with SD? Does +1 body press 2hko?
 
Hm. If you don't mind me asking, how does that set check waterpon? Like what is the sequence of events that lets you beat it instead of it muscling past you with SD? Does +1 body press 2hko?
It just beats any set without encore but here's the thing, you shouldn't be solely reliant on this hoodra set. While it does 2hko Wogerpon at +1 with rocks up, it's also still a good special wall and it'll probably have to come in on some other things that can put it in range to die. Pair it with something like CB zamazenta.
 
I think Koko itself is broken with Tera. Its just a little worse Regieleki with Tera Ice, being able to be physical or special.
Ah yes. Because we ABSOLUTELY NEED a Regieleki 2.0 that can facilitate an entire abilities worth of pokemon. In fact if you factor in terrain,

252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 186-220 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake in Electric Terrain: 180-213 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tapus Koko is almost equal strength with the Electric STAB -- and the subsequent Tera Ice Blast. Yea I think we learned enough from Regieleki that this thing is gonna be a bit much. It would be wise for the OU Council to not even test this bastard in OU at all and pre-emptively ban the thing.
 
I think Koko itself is broken with Tera. Its just a little worse Regieleki with Tera Ice, being able to be physical or special. Moth I think is fine with or without Koko, it never felt to me a problematic Mon during the whole Gen.
There are some problems:
-koko has lower spattk, and terrain boost is ×1,3, so mons like slowking galar, heatran, ting-lu, blissey can take koko hits with tera ice.
-Koko has a clearly lower speed so it can be revenge killed by scarf, booster energy mons, and specs dragapult.
-Koko's power depends on electric surge, if we remove it from the field, it becomes less powerful
-Tera ice would force it to run boots instead of specs, because of hasards, but with boots, the damages wouldn't be enough to Ko everything.
-Regieleki is so fast it can run modest, whereas modest koko would be easy to revenge kill.
-The best physical electric move learnt by koko is wild charge, which has recoil and is a contact move. Physical set would be just checked by zam, garganacl, and maybe even tusk because this thing is too bulky. Also, there is no physical fairy move on koko. Choice band sets would die very quickly because of recoil and hasards.

However, koko also has cm, ice/electrik is almost impossible to resist, and it could run physical and special sets which would have different counterplays, so yeah it could be broken, but clearly not as much as regieleki.
With rising voltage, it would be banned quickly, but without it, it could stay ou after the "first wave of bans", and koko could be banned a few weeks after.

However, we don't know which mons are back, and with which moves, we don't now all the new mons and their typing, so it's hard to tell.
I think unbanned mons, iv, and new or returning crazy mons will be better than it, because there is always at least one crazy mon banned just after the beginning of a new meta, because gamefreak always finds a way to create a new absurdly strong thing (Like flutter mane and many others at the beginning of the gen, returning mag and regieleki after home, scale shot bax and ogerpon fire after dlc1), but maybe I'm too pessimistic.

Anyway, like I said in every post, we'll see
Edit: 115 attk isn't so strong, I thought koko had 120 but its 115.
Also, the electric surge lasts only 5 turns and can be removed.
I think koko should at least allowed at the beginning, it's way less powerful than regieleki. Also, we don't know if ferrothorn is back

I also think koko would be broken, but we can't be 100% sure unless if the council lets koko be ou at the beginning of the dlc2 meta.
We also aren't even sure that koko is back lol. We put the chart before the mudsdale (I might have done a grammar mistake but that's allriiiiiight)
 
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i wouldn't personally use the static encounter list as an indicator for what mons got cut since it's missing calyrex and enamorus. it's just confirmation for which legendaries we can actually catch in the dlc. could mean there'll be transfer only legendaries and mythicals since swsh had those as well
Calyrex and Enamorus have been available since Home's update, and it looks like for now they're still transfer only
 
Something else about physical Koko is that its stabs are mid at best. 90% accuracy on Play Rough sucks ass and Wild Charge is just a bad move in general.
Koko has never learnt play rough
Moreover, I just remembered that weavile, which has higher attk stat, doesn't even 2hko defensive tusk with ice spinner (with the boots set)
Physical koko would just be a weird option to create a surprise effect
 
Koko has never learnt play rough
Moreover, I just remembered that weavile, which has higher attk stat, doesn't even 2hko defensive tusk with ice spinner (with the boots set)
Physical koko would just be a weird option to create a surprise effect
I swear koko had a physical fairy STAB, no wonder physical koko was never a thing because jesus christ lmao.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Oh so we're discussing Koko now? That mon isn't gonna be problematic because of its offensive potential (at least unless they give it NP, Ice Beam and Moonblast in the next DLC), even with Tera, but cause it's gonna enable so many borderline mons to the next level. You tought Moth and Valiant were already a threat? Try giving them Electric Seed, HDB or anything else on top of their Speed boost, and expect them to run Electric Terrain-boosted Thunderbolt and DIscharge much more frequently. And we don't even know how strong the new Paradox mons are going to be.
 
I think Milotic is kind of a fake check to Moth considering how hard it gets chunked by E Ball but you're right otherwise.
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Milotic: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HK0

It's not really threatening much to Milo and Milo threatens it back.

Ah yes. Because we ABSOLUTELY NEED a Regieleki 2.0 that can facilitate an entire abilities worth of pokemon. In fact if you factor in terrain,

252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 186-220 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake in Electric Terrain: 180-213 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tapus Koko is almost equal strength with the Electric STAB -- and the subsequent Tera Ice Blast. Yea I think we learned enough from Regieleki that this thing is gonna be a bit much. It would be wise for the OU Council to not even test this bastard in OU at all and pre-emptively ban the thing.
Koko isn't comparable because eleki literally outran everything and required priority to beat offensively. Koko also has always had ways past ground types before. It's not broken (and in natdex it's never been remotely considered broken).
 
Calcs about tapu koko:

Physical: 252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 372-444 (97.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs.
252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 200-236 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 252-300 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 230-272 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 264-312 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tera Ice Tapu Koko Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 158-188 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

It doesn't even 2hko defensive tusk like I said, and it's walled by garganacl


The special set seems better, but walled by heatran, slowking galar, garganacl, skeledirge, only 3hko ting lu, and is countered by tapu lele. Fun fact: zamazenta max attk 2hkoes it with heavy slam and can take at least one hit.
Off course, I talk about boots set, the other sets would be destroyed by hazards.
Koko doesn't do at all as much damage as regieleki.

Koko would be very strong but not as broken as lele would be. Also, Koko would too much depend on tera, except if we just play gen 8 sets.

I think Koko wouldn't get banned, or perhaps after months. However, Iron Valiant would be. Like I said before, Moth would not be strong but may be balanced.
Also, specs valiant and moth both revenge kill koko because of their ability
 
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